Massacre's Kam Lee - The Godfather of Growl and champion of TRUE OSDM has returned! You've gotta be an old head to really understand an artist like Kam, or at least one who genuinely appreciates the art of death metal done the old-school way. Kam has been involved with death metal since its humble early '80s inception - the days of denim, leather and of destroying posers! People tend to forget the '80s way of doing things, as it's been overshadowed by pervasive early '90s revelry. Kam stands firm in his stance and in his belief that death metal is an art form beholden to tradition, as it should be! What's become of the genre over the past couple of decades is laughable in my opinion, and you will soon see that I'm not alone.

Massacre are set to unleash their fifth studio LP, "Necrolution", via Agonia, and if it's AI cover art, sanitized production, and uber-technical mumbo-jumbo you're accustomed to then prepare for some serious fucking disappointment. During my latest interview, Kam Lee of Massacre discusses the glory days of death metal, Chuck Schuldiner, Scott Burns, Lovecraft, horror films and of course the new album. Put on some real OSDM, rip a bong load, and down a couple shots of Jack to this one! Here we go…

Jeger

Greetings, Kam. It's an honor! Shit, man, you've been at it since the beginning - the Mantas (later known as the legendary Death) era. Death metal was but a whisper in those days and it was guys like yourself, the late Chuck Schuldiner, Rick Rozz, Allen West, and Terry Butler who ushered in death metal as we would come to know it following the formation of Jeff Becerra's Possessed. I've always been curious as to how it all started and who actually influenced you guys. How would you describe the OSDM scene and who were some of your early influences?

Well, considering I really wasn't a metalhead in the beginning back in 1983 and 1984, I was more into punk music. Two of my biggest influences were the Misfits and the Plasmatics. Honestly, that's the realm from where I came. Later on, it was much more for all demo material stuff like the  Hellhammer demo and the first Venom album. For me personally, I was really digging the early thrash coming out of Germany such as Kreator (Back then called Tormentor), Destruction, and Sodom.

Gotta talk Chuck! The guy went on to revolutionize the genre through some very well-respected and groundbreaking albums as the legendary Death mastermind. What was it like working with him and can you tell us something about him that really impacted you?

He was a stubborn kid with obvious guitar skills and a bit of an attitude of entitlement. However, that's not me ragging on him. It's just me telling the truth - unfortunately, most fans don't want to hear that part of the truth, because they have a particular opinion about what they want to believe. So, although it's not my intention, it's hard to tell the truth because it sort of knocks certain people's idols off the pedestal that they put them on. So, no matter what I say, it will always be taken in a negative way, because all these years it's been set up that way. I am the villain to his hero.

You had the opportunity to work with Scott Burns who is a Tampa legend himself; having engineered a slew of records for the likes of Deicide, Obituary, and Cannibal Corpse to name a few at Morrisound Recording. The very best in my opinion. How would you compare his work to other engineers you've worked with?

To be honest, I don't really have anything to say. Scott was just an engineer. He did what most Engineers do: He made suggestions, he pushed knobs, turned buttons and that was about it. The majority of what was happening was basically Colin Richardson. So, even though Scott Burns was there, Scott was just a guy pushing buttons and changing levels from what I saw. Colin Richardson was doing most of the work.

How do you feel about modern recording technology such as Auto-Tune and Pro Tools? Personally, I see the creation of technology like this as a catalyst to a very undignified future for music in general.

Technology is inevitable, but it's not the technology itself that is ever the issue, but how those who wield it that need to be taken into consideration. If one becomes too reliant on technology, then are they truly using technology, or is technology using them? I wouldn't blame technology and modern advances in recording for killing music any more than I would blame the manufacturing of guns for killing people. The gun didn't kill the person. The person using the gun is responsible for killing, and in the same way, the person using technology could be responsible for killing music. However, it's all just a matter of perspective and what side of the fence you stand on.  It's not just the individuals using the technology or making music, but it also has to do with how much the fanbase is willing to accept. From what I've seen, especially in the past decade is the fans are definitely divided, so you're gonna have fans who are going to adhere to old-school aesthetics and ideals, and then you're gonna have more modern fans who could care less about old-school ways and only care about what technology can easily bring them.

Alright, let's jump into your new album, "Necrolution", scheduled for a November 8 release via Agonia. This one also delves into the realm of Lovecraft. From which of his stories did you draw inspiration for this one?

I take influence from a lot of Lovecraft stories; some direct, some indirect. It's not necessarily something that's meant to be a synopsis of one of his stories. I'll take ideas and small parts of a story in hopes that it encapsulates an atmosphere rather than trying to tell the entire story in a song. Sometimes I've done that and I've just taken small parts of it, and everything like I said is literally based on Lovecraft directly. There's a lot of indirect influences as well. I use a lot of Lovecraft as a metaphor for my personal misanthropy. I personally don't like mankind - I think human beings are a virus and disease. I use Lovecraftian aesthetics as a way to express my disappointment and disgust for humanity. While a lot of death metal bands and black metal bands use satanic imagery as a way to express nihilism, I instead use cosmic horror to express a deeper existentialism about man's place in a ruthless universe.

There are also some 80's film references mixed into the lyrics. Which films in particular inspired some of the lyrics for "Necrolution"?

I base three songs off of three of Stuart Gordon's films that he based on Lovecraft. He was the horror movie director who was basically responsible for bringing Lovecraft to the forefront of horror movies in the 80s.

Films like: THE REANIMATOR, FROM BEYOND, and CASTLE FREAK. These are the three films that I based songs off of directly.

Favorite horror film? I really dig the old-school '80s flicks. They had to actually create out of physical material back then. The Fly (1986) is one in particular that stands out for me.

It's actually hard for me to pick a favorite because I like so many films. But for me, my all-time favorite films are the original EVIL DEAD along with the original TEXAS CHAINSAW MASSACRE. Those two films resonate with me and really are the root films to my preferred style.

You seem to have an affinity with Swedish DM artists. You've chosen to work with Rogga Johansson (Paganizer) and Jonny Pettersson (Wombbath). The Swedish style is a lot different than ours. What were you expecting out of our Sverige brothers that you may not have gotten from an American artist?

An understanding and respect for true old-school aesthetics and traditions.

What does your touring cycle in support of the new album look like so far?

Hahaha! That's actually hilarious, as we have been trying to find a talent agency to book us, but so far it's been difficult. Truth is, I'm not one to bullshit, lie and try to say that we have a huge touring schedule all planned out - blah blah blah - that's far from the truth. Like I said, it's incredibly hard to get any touring, especially in the US because MASSACRE is not a band that's really that popular in the US. So, we basically have to go back to where we are most welcomed and that's in Europe. Europe seems to be the only place where we can thrive, but that's not a problem, because I prefer touring in Europe as opposed to the US, because you wanna go where we are appreciated. The US just doesn't really show us much support.

What's your overall opinion on contemporary death metal? The real bread and butter these days seems to be found underground.

Well, if by contemporary death metal you mean the popular crap that can be bought in a mall store like Hot Topic or Spencer's Gifts then yeah, well, I don't consider that to be true death metal. And I'm sure a bunch of your readers reading that will find that offensive, but it's just a matter of opinion. Like you said, it seems the bread and butter these days is to be found in the underground. I've always considered MASSACRE an underground band and never one that should ever be popular… Being popular isn't true death metal sensibility - that's rockstar poser bullshit, and I'm all against rockstar poser bullshit! I'll leave that up to the cash cow cover bands and poser elite fans who support that kind of shit.

Do you have a message for your fans?

Well, thanks for the interview and I hope the fans find the band and the new album to be something that is a retro-nostalgic look back to the old days and the era gone by of the true underground death metal scene!

Legendary German death metal pioneers Atrocity recently released closer album of their "Okkult" trilogy (read review here) which became a very old school album that might be one of the death metal highlights in 2023. I skyped with band leader Alexander Krull to talk about that trilogy and the band's history. During the interview I also discovered some more dark facets of the band that I somehow forgot during all these years but are worth reading about. Do you want to know what Atrocity has to do with German Schlagermusic – go ahead and read the interview! Have fun reading and thank you Alexander for taking the time.

Michael

Hello Alexander, how are you?

There have been better times, we live in a crazy world. But I'm fine, if you look at the artistic side. There are 10 years of Occult to celebrate - in January the album will see the light of day and then we let the beast off the chain (laughs). We just had video shoots and there were the signed editions, the whole rat race then comes after, but in a positive sense. But other than that, what also gets to me personally is that the past few years have not been pretty, especially in terms of the live sector. You couldn't meet all the people in person, we played on five continents and in fifty different countries; Leaves' Eyes is my other band and with them we postponed one tour after the other, until now, at the end of the day we couldn't tour again. It's very frustrating and the point is that, of course, we also very much want to party with the fans in person and now the whole tragedy with the war is added to that. We have two crew members who live in Kiev, our live mixer and our backliner and that's a drama in itself and we also have friends there. We also have friends in Russia who, you can say, fear for their lives because they don't agree with the politics of the regime. These are times that we would not have wished for and could not have imagined. And with this whole issue of war, which puts people in fearful states and which causes many to be unable to go about their daily lives, we are now getting a little bit into the "occult" issue as well. It's a big part of the trilogy that has to do with the fact that in any system - dictatorship, democracy, kingdom, whatever - in all these political systems and also - above all - in religion and in religious associations, there's always one very big factor above everything: Fear. With fear you control any system, any belief system - if you don't follow this and that, then you go to hell or to prison - fear works everywhere and that was also a basic idea when we started with the trilogy, that we process the dark side of humanity there. No animal would do such cruel things to another animal as man does to man and also the way people are driven by politics and religion - in Iran you see that right now, people are oppressed and at the same time the rich and powerful of the world keep taking everything for themselves. These are actually the outlaws who can get away with anything and that is closely connected with spiritual violence and then the physical violence from the state side comes on top of that. Here in Europe the church had the scepter firmly in their hands, that they also tortured and enslaved people at the same time. Fortunately, they are no longer allowed to do that (laughs). The whole thing is interwoven in that often the dark human side comes out when man has the power or the money to do so. This opens Pandora's box, when man has the opportunity, people suddenly turn into monsters. You saw that in the Third Reich, for example, where a normal office boy became a mass murderer in a concentration camp. For us as a band that has done a lot of different things, we're always looking for a new approach, vision or challenge. When we did Atlantis I also did a huge research and found out that this flood legend was all over the planet. So not only in Greek mythology, but also in Africa, it was called "Atlantioy", in South America "Atzlan" and in the Bible it was the biblical flood legend. In Asia there is also something like that.  There I had many points of contact, from complete esotericism over ufologists up to Nazis, who searched for Atlantis - there was already a very large range. Especially in esoteric circles it was said that these are the origins of mankind or "my ancestors were Atlantids". That was a big theme that you don't expect at the beginning. This is not a Walt Disney story with some underwater men - no, there is much more behind it. So after the Cradles of Humankind it was clear to me that the dark history of mankind with all its facets would come next and that one album would not be enough for that. Then it was also clear that the musical direction must be brutal, evil and epic.

Did you find it difficult to write lyrics on the overriding theme across three albums? Although, with this theme, there's always something new to add....

I didn't want to dig up the common stuff; I wanted to filter out stuff that not everybody has kind of addressed. 'Bleeding For Blasphemy', for example, is about the Knights Templar, but not about the sunken treasure and everything that has already been associated with it in heavy metal, but that it was a brotherhood that first participated in the Crusades in the name of God and was more or less the blood hand of the church, and in the end they themselves were doomed by their initiation rituals. It was much attributed to them that they held satanic rituals, worshiped Baphomet or spat on the cross. The other facet was that when the high priest was burned, he still cursed the two main players, the French king (Phillip IV) and the pope (Clement V), and they actually then died in the same year. So there are aspects in there like the inexplicable, the mystical but also historical events and places. We also had the occult treasure hunt with the 24-carat gold CD, the bonus track they must first find and start this treasure hunt.

Is the treasure hunt still going on?

Yes, the first one is still not completed. I mean, it's also going through six countries. The problem is, we don't know ourselves yet. Before, we didn't want to start the second one and now we're already on the third one. On the other hand, it's kind of cool that it's lasted so long, but we'll see what's going on soon and then we'll see.

Musically "Okkult III" is quite dark and brute and the atmospheric parts are not so much in focus anymore. What would you say makes the difference to the two previous albums?

Occult III was supposed to be the grand finale. It's very retro, very brute, you put it well, and we changed a few things in the production. For me, it was important that the atmosphere and what makes the Occult trilogy come across like a steamroller. We really wanted to have a very powerful record and the requirement was that we write killer riffs. Tosso, my longtime collaborator, is no longer with us since 2022, but we knew that beforehand. One riff is still from him and we then wrote together with Micki. That was partly still in Corona times, where you were only allowed to be in the studio with one other person. We're all happy, including Tosso with what he heard, which of course makes me very happy and that was just the right continuation and a great transition. The premise that each “Okkult” album can also stand on its own was also clear from the beginning. We don't want to do something that sounds all the same and differs only in sound. It is interesting that there are more symphonic elements on the first "Okkult", that many find the choir arrangements on the second album more remarkable. There are a few choirs there, that's true (laughs)....

Haha, exactly, as with "human slaughterhouse", I find that really blatant!

That is the contrast. Of course you can ask why we put a choir in there, although it doesn't have to be so obvious. The band is called Atrocity and we do things like that (laughs).

You have already released two videos - 'Desecration Of God' and 'Born To Kill'. The two videos are already quasi small films. Can you tell a little bit more about it?

There will be three more videos from us. I've been active in video productions before and I also produce videos for other bands, I just did the new Eisregen video. For such a topic like Atrocity I also want to have a nice visual realization. I personally don't think much of lyric videos, maybe I'd rather not make a video at all (laughs). This cinematography is also a passion of mine, since Corona I've been more involved with it. My sister used to have a film company and I introduced her to the bands in the 90s. She did everything from Skyclad to Lacrimosa and also the first Wacken film. But now she lives in New Zealand and is completely out of it. I was involved in the editing back then, when it was all still done on celluloid and you have to have a bit of an eye for the stuff. The problem with some video producers is that they can't connect the images properly with the music. These are technically very skilled people, but they lack the access to it. After a few videos, where a lot of people asked me about it, it was clear that we will also do this with Atrocity - high-quality videos - and gradually I mutated to a video producer, because I get more and more requests, which is not bad.

I have the promo in front of me, where you have recorded all 10 tracks again as an instrumental version. Will this be added as a bonus CD or are they included with the regular CD?

The mediabook is our regular edition and with Okkult II it was already like that, that if we don't have any other bonus tracks except for the treasure hunt, it's a cool thing that you can discover so many details. We already did that with Leaves' Eyes and that was really cool. Or, if someone wants he can also sing karaoke on it ( laughs).

Haha, yeah, a Sing Star Atrocity edition for the Playstation would be cool!

Yeah, we need to have a contest sometime - Atrocity Karaoke, haha!

Are you going to release different editions with different covers like you did in the past?

There is definitely this mediabook version and then a box comes out that looks really cool and there are also different LP color versions. The mediabook is without any frippery, but there is a flag in the box. I haven't seen it myself yet, but the graphic designer told me it was the absolute bomb. The artwork is fantastic too, especially on the LP it flashed you and it's all very tastefully done too. With the box are also various cards, which we have also signed, there are also patches.

Let's go back a bit into your past - your breakthrough "Todessehnsucht" just turned 30 years old. Are there any plans to do an anniversary gig or something? What does it look like with a tour?

We have the request again and again, also for Hallucinations, which was released two years before. But I'm glad when we can bring the Occult trilogy live on stage and we will probably lack the time for anniversary gigs. Something like that can always be considered, maybe when we celebrate another band anniversary. We celebrated the 25th band anniversary with a big show in Wacken. But let's wait and see. 2024 is the 30th anniversary of Blut and there I already know what everyone wants (laughs). That's how it goes on and on. Every album that has an anniversary should immediately get an anniversary concert. But that's also nice, because it shows that people still have a great affinity for it. There was a new LP edition of Todessehnsucht, which was sold out immediately, of Hallucinations as well - I don't know how many re-releases there are of it - and there will always be new vinyls. The last rumor was that there will be a double album of Werk 80, but there are problems with the pressing plant.

During your career you have also released some albums that were received quite ambivalently, like "Blut", the EP "Calling The Rain", where your sister sang along, or also "Werk 80". Would you change anything in retrospect or maybe even record something like that again nowadays?

0.0 I would change something there! That is set in stone. That's music history, we don't even need to discuss it. An example of this - let's take the mini-album with my sister Jasmin. The Blood album was released and there she was with 'Calling The Rain' already with this acoustic song in a death metal band, if you want to categorize it that way. We were of course death metal pioneers from Germany, there was no techno-death metal before, we generated that with Hallucinations, with Todessehnsucht German lyrics, no one had that either and then we fell out with our label at the time Roadrunner, which was so the biggest label at the time, because of this creativity. We said that we will have a German title again and if that is changed again in the USA, then we are out.

Yeah, I remember that "Todessehnsucht" was called "Longing For Death".

Right. In retrospect, they thought it was pretty stupid themselves, but that was the way it was back then and I started working for Massacre Records at that time. There was interest from the usual labels, where we were also made very good offers, we were virtually the flagship from Germany, and it would also be strange to work for a record company, but to go somewhere else with my band. But I had made the condition that I absolutely get all artistic freedoms and that the band is also supported in it. They agreed to that and I had all the cards in my hand to do it that way: video shoot in Transylvania, continue German lyrics - it was not so much, but was important for me. With 'Calling The Rain' there was a huge feedback, people were totally flashed by it, they were surprised, but somehow they liked it. My sister has this deep, earthy voice that gets under your skin, like Dead Can Dance. Then we played a show with my sister together with Goethes Erben, which was sold out immediately, that was unbelievable. We also toured with her together with Rage and the orchestra. There's also a story about that, which I don't think I've ever really told. The label had given us all the artistic freedom, but of course left out how it runs financially: "you can do that, whether we finance it all is something else". Then the distribution manager was called, who said that it was all artistically very demanding, but we will not be able to sell more than 1500 units of it. Accordingly, the budget was small. I had hoped for more, of course, but that was the assessment. I then went to the studio and told them that I had to get in there for a handout and record something with my sister. We then made the following deal: they did their regular studio job during the day and then I went into the studio from evening to morning and got a sound assistant to help me. That is, I worked at the label during the day and then went to the studio in the evening to continue working there. In the morning I freshened up and went back to the label. After three days I had my first hearing loss, but we pulled it off. The funny end of the story was that the 1500 I think 30000 units became.

What kind of music do you listen to privately?

So in general I judge music as good or bad. The genre plays a role, of course, so I don't want to listen to cast shit. So we're talking mainly about metal and rock music, although I can sometimes get something out of other things. But of course I also listen to the harder stuff, often I like the classics. On the way to the last video shoot we had a relatively long drive and my son assisted me. I then presented him with a bit of metal music history and we really went through all the genres, from speed, thrash, death, grindcore. That's my lifestyle, sure. Which is nice - I recently produced the upcoming Discreation, where Marc Grewe is the new singer and I can do stuff that I like in my private life. Sometimes symphonic bands come to me and right now I'm producing a classic hard rock band, which is also really fun. I'm open to everything that is good music.

I read the other day about a metal musician and producer who re-recorded a popular hit song with a band....something you don't do, though?

I'm someone who likes to explore extremes, but that's not my thing. On the other hand, we have also played with Heino on TV. When he made his metal album, we were more or less his backing band for a few TV shows. I got a call from an old acquaintance who used to be the label manager of Theatre Of Tragedy and nowadays does completely different things, including Heino. He said that he didn't know any metal band from Germany that he would trust to do this and I was a bit skeptical at the beginning. Our Dutch drummer Joris then said: "what, we know Heino in Holland too, let's do it". Heino then really did "Blau Blüht Der Enzian" and "Wir Lagen Vor Madagaskar" with hard guitars like Rammstein, with whom he was on stage together in Wacken and then we were asked if we would accompany that and we did a few TV shows.

Well, then maybe you'll come to the ZDF-Fernsehgarten. There was a metal show the other day, haha!

Haha, I know. Our "neighbor" is Andrea Berg, she lives one place away and there is actually a funny story about it. We were with Heino at the "Great Festival of the Best" with Florian Silbereisen, Helene Fischer was of course also there, you could have a good chat with her and that was quite funny. Everyone was really excited because these long-haired metal guys were there and Heino, who is a cool guy by the way, found the whole thing very amusing. He then came to the dress rehearsal with Andrea Berg in his arms and introduced me to Andrea as her neighbor. We then talked and she had heard of us before, which I found very surprising. Her band leader at the time, Knuth, who is a percussionist, and I got along very well with him. Knuth then played percussion on two albums with Leaves' Eyes. In principle, if something is musically well done, for example with cool electro beats, I can listen to that. Because of the TV garden - metal has become socially acceptable since Wacken and Andy Brings, the former guitarist of Sodom, went there once and then they talked to him directly and he ended up playing in a later show. The other thing is, of course, that the metal scene is not socially acceptable for everyone. On the other hand, I know crew people who usually drive with metal bands who also work with well-paid pop stars. Names are not mentioned, but they tell exactly the same stories as we do on tour. So some things are quite similar. But our metal lifestyle and the music is unique in the world. When I go to South America or Asia, the people are on the same wavelength as here. The nice thing is that the metal family sticks together so well even in times of crisis. I also hope that it stays that way, because the polarization and radicalization of society is a great danger and there is a bridge to be built. Even if people don't agree politically, they find their way back together through music.

Why is Dutch the predestined language for hatefully sung black metal? Is Utrecht the ugliest city in the world (after Herne and Gelsenkirchen, Germany)? How does the band deal with their recent popularity? I asked singer Jorre of the Dutch band Grafjammer (who released their third album "De Zoute Kwel" via Folter Records last December, review here) these and many more questions. The result is the very interview below - dank je wel, Jorre!!!

Michael

Hey Jorre, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. Everything good with you guys?

Hello. You are welcome. Thank you for taking an interest in Grafjammer. To answer your question, 'Everything' is quite a lot but we're doing well all things considered. How are you? We are satisfied about how 'De Zoute Kwel' turned out and the positive reviews and attention it gathered until now. Even during a pandemic. For obvious reasons it has been mainly an 'online' affair last year and in terms of shows it was a bit dull. For a nearly 6 months we were not even able to rehearse properly because of the lockdown. Still we have no real reason to complain. Nobody close to us died or became seriously ill, we didn't become jobless or go bankrupt, the fridge is full, the roof doesn't leak. And in an unprecedented scientific triumph we're all vaccinated. So, while I am aware that it is neither very KVLT or NEKRO to say, we're reasonably positive.

You made it with your new album "De Zoute Kwel" on a well-known label, Folter Records from Germany. How did it come about?

The honor for bringing that deal home goes to our guitarist and general fixer, Jouter. Networking is very much his core business. Recently he even started his own promotion company called 'Dead Mill Media', if you allow me a bit of candid advertising by proxy. Jouter came in contact with Joerg from Folter and managed to coerce him into releasing De Zoute Kwel through Folter Records. We're really happy with how that turned out. Joerg is a kind and down to earth guy devoid of 'bla bla' who runs a professional and tight ship. Folter Records has great renown and reach especially in the BM underground which got us with Grafjammer on more people's radar than with our earlier releases. Together with that I would also like to point out that De Zoute Kwel was simultaneously released on tape through our good 'friend of the band', Matthias Frenzel on his Black Tapes label. As were our previous albums. So coincidently now, both our record tycoons are from Berlin.

Because of that your level of popularity has increased quite a bit. Are you surprised that you got so much (good) feedback in the media?

Well, we are certainly flattered by the many positive reviews we received from around the globe. In all modesty we were (and still are) quite happy with how De Zoute Kwel came out of the oven. But it is certainly rewarding to read that a lot of other people are enjoying it as well. We consider ourselves still an obscure band, so all this attention feels like a lot of big shiny peacocks' feathers planted firmly into our unwashed asses. If we were into Instagram, we would start using hashtags like #blessed and #humbled.

You always mix your traditional black metal with a pinch of punk'n'roll and also Folklore. What are your musical influences that contribute significantly to the songwriting?

For Grafjammer in general the most influential to our sound are –probably not surprising - bands like Darkthrone, Carpathian Forest, Venom and Mötorhead. Close behind that comes more punkish stuff like The Exploited, Discharge and Carnivore. For the lyrical part I'm an avid fan of Nick Cave and how he is able to conjure complete worlds and stories in the course of his songs. Apart from those more obvious influences there are a myriad of other bands and artists that we wholeheartedly steal shit from. Most of us in the band are not exactly teenagers anymore and we've been listening to tons of stuff of nearly every variety in the last decades. That ranges from 60's and 70's rock, old punk, surf, prog, every flavor of heavy metal and traditional music and much more. All that forms us in conscious and unconscious ways but at the bottom line we don't really think or talk about it all that much. We have an instinctive mutual feeling how Grafjammer should sound, and more importantly, how it definitely should not sound so usually we just start with a riff and then look for another one. If it works, it works and we don't really care from what influence it comes.

Lyrically, the new album is about dark stories from Utrecht, partly fairy tales from the Netherlands. Quasi an anti-travel guide for your hometown. Please tell us something about the background of the lyrics.

Thank you for asking and at the same time, be careful what you ask for. I find it hard to really say something general about the lyrics, so I better talk you through it song by song. 'Jajempriester' translates as 'Jenever Priest' in old Dutch slang. It mainly deals with a fictitious, unlicensed bar where fornication, violence and alcoholism run rife. It's both a tribute to 2 bars of ill repute in Utrecht that unfortunately no longer exist and at the same time dedicated to one of our favorite bartenders in dB's, the place where we drink and rehearse. 'Affreus. Infaam. Abjec' means something like 'Despicable, Vile, Unwholesome' and deals mainly with the horrors of depression, anxiety disorder and the apocalyptic battlefield that can occur between your ears when you really could do with some forgetful sleep. 'Zelfverminkers & Spiritusdrinkers' or 'Selfmutilators and Paintstripperdinkers' is first an anthem to the junkies, homeless and insane that used to live in and around the Utrecht Central Station, especially before the great renovation a couple of years ago. Secondly it also deals with their medieval counterparts for beneath the fundaments of the station lie the remains of a cemetery for deplorables like the unbaptized, executed prisoners and witches. 'De Bijlman Van Trecht' is the 'Axeman of Utrecht'. A pattern in the medieval waterways and streets of the city that seems to resemble a man brandishing an axe. The historical consensus is that this is purely coincidental and a form of psychological projection but there are some old and arcane sources that suggest otherwise. That gave me a basis for a dark and rotten walk of the town. 'De Bakboordshand' means 'Portside Hand' and is a maritime ghost story loosely based on the legend of the Flying Dutchman and some stuff I stole elsewhere. The title refers to the old superstition that lefthanded people were seen as prodigies of the Devil and that captains of ships hesitated to employ lefthanded sailors among their crew. 'Bijbelgordelgesel' is a play on words and means 'Bible Belt Whip'. It's situated in the forests east of the city where in the villages their Christian worship is still a big thing. We've racked that up to medieval and Old Testament extremes in terms of religious madness, flagellation and burnt offerings. 'De Kinderen Branden' or 'The Children Burn' smells of moldy thrift shops and the bleakness of the '50's. It's mainly about the supposed curse of the kitsch paintings of weeping 'gypsy children' that where once very popular in working class households. The story goes that these paintings provoke depression and suicide, cause fire and burn down your house. 'Maak Het Kort' means 'Make It Short'. Supposedly it were the last words of the Dutch first minister, Johan van Oldebarnevelt whispered to his executioner right before his head was chopped of as the outcome of a political fake trial staged by his former friend, the Prince of the Netherlands in 1619. We turned into a big 'fuck off and die' from the scaffold on behalf of this man who was unceremoniously betrayed by the Dutch state to which he dedicated his entire career and life. 'Kolkgat' translates as 'Whirlhole', a small lake beside a dyke that remains as a scar in the landscape when a dyke breaks through. It's about a particular piece of dyke a little to the south of the city that is nearly 1500 years old and represents centuries of battle against the water and drowning in floods as has been custom in the Lowlands since time immemorial. As you can see, lyrically it goes in different directions. I like to read a lot and collect stories and trivia about local history, Dutch folklore and old forgotten words which I enhance with some personal experience and imagination. What ties them together - I hope - is a general feeling of dread and typical Dutch bleakness. We try to stay away a bit from the more traditional 'Satan will kill you very dead!' antics that you see a lot in metal.

I think your voice really fits perfectly to the sick stories. This is partly because of the sick performance you deliver, but also because I think Dutch is a great language to "vomit out" black metal vocals in. Would you agree with me on that?

You smother me with praise, how could I possibly disagree? I certainly concur with that Dutch suits our type of music very well. Dutch is a rough, guttural language with al lot of hard consonants and little finesse, so there you go. It also helps a lot I think to sing in my mother tongue and to keep it literally as close to home as possible. It effects a certain directness without the barriers a second language might create. On the risk of coming across as a pretentious dick I really try make an effort to feel what I am singing about and put a lot of emphasis on pronunciation and intelligibility. Glad that you like it.

I have the impression that the Dutch BM scene is getting stronger and bigger. On the one hand there are the old bands like Funeral Winds or Countess, but also many innovative bands like for example Fluisteraars, Urfaust or Weltschmerz, where your drummer also plays, who also integrate other influences into their music. How do you see the development in your country?

There is certainly a lot going on for sure, although I might not be the greatest expert to ask. Our guitarist Jouter or drummer Jahwe can probably make much better observations on the subject than I can. I do try to keep in touch with the Dutch scene as much as I can every now and then in terms of new releases and bands. But to be completely honest there is not much that really gets me going. Although I recognize that it is often good stuff, I find personally that I get more and more drawn to the older things from the '70's, 80's and 90's and much of it not even metal. The reason for this is most likely that I'm turning into a reactionary old fart. I'll probably will tell you next that we only had hot summers and cold winters when I was young… If I may crack one critical note about a lot of contemporary (black) metal, not especially Dutch, it is that I often miss the 'song'. There is undisputed great musical ability and complexity, but it often lacks some proper hooks for my taste. And sometimes a bit of healthy self-mockery. I find that everybody takes themselves so bloody serious these days. What I really do like is that more and more Dutch BM bands start singing in Dutch and garner attention for forgotten words and the Dutch language in general.

Are there bands (not only in the Netherlands) with whom you have a special friendship?

Absolutely. The most obvious one being the Swiss Chotzä from Bern with whom we did a couple of splits and even more gigs in the last few years. They are without doubt the most disgusting, unhygienic and intoxicated bunch of individuals we ever came across. They are also extremely sympathetic guys who play their BM like the extramarital child of GG Allin and Jerry Lee Lewis. Be sure to check out their album, Tüüfuswärk from 2020. Just wash your hands afterwards.

Do you know the guys from Kwade Droes? Did they break up now or was their EP "Met Onoprechte Deelneming" just a bad joke?

To be honest I had no idea whatsoever what you were talking about. But Google and Metal Archives are your friends. So, I just listened to that EP you mentioned. Great eerie sounding stuff, I like it! Thank you for bringing my attention to it. And that EP title is quite brilliant, I think. Concerning the second part of your question, I wouldn't know the answer to that to save my petty life. Sorry.

Your FB-page says that there will be a 30th anniversary Folter Records Festival in September where you will play? Do you have any other plans for the rest of the year or 2022?

Yes, we have been invited to the Folter Festival indeed, deep into the woods of Friesack. We're really looking forward to that one. It will be our first live performance in more than 1,5 years. 2 weeks later will be our album presentation in dBs in Utrecht, also nearly a year overdue. Apart from that we have some more gigs planned in the last part of 2021 and the beginning 2022. If they can all find their way through. The situation in Europe and the rest of the world is still volatile as fuck so I am not putting money on anything. Delta variants of Covid, global thermonuclear warfare, alien invasions…nothing would surprise me anymore.

Finally, coming back to Utrecht, what (besides the train station) should you maybe have seen? The Nederlands Spoorwegmuseum, haha???

There is a lot to be seen in Utrecht beside the Railway Museum, which is actually very nice, but I hesitate a bit to talk about it here publicly. Mass tourism has in the last decade already reduced great cities like Amsterdam, Barcelona and Rome to open air museums and theme parks for stag parties and idiots galore. Lately smaller Dutch historical cities like Utrecht, Amersfoort and Haarlem have been listed in Tourism guides and websites as 'off the beaten track/ best kept secret' alternatives for Amsterdam. I shudder to think what hordes of backpackers and braindead city trippers will do to my town together with the Nutella shops and Madame Tussauds. So, let me be clear. There is NOTHING to see in Utrecht. It is the very mouth of Hell. The main cause of death is boredom. We've been having a massive outbreak of Ebola for decades. We charge you 20 euros for a small glass of warm beer that tastes like piss. Stay away.

The last words belong to you!!!

Thank you for having us. Anyone interested in De Zoute Kwel or other Grafjammer stuff, get if from Folter Records or our Bandcamp or other independent web shops or record stores. Fuck Amazon in the ass. Furthermore, get your bloody vaccine if you have the chance. Read books, not memes. Trust science, not YouTube. Cheers!

Heel erg bedankt voor het interview!!!

Het genoegen was geheel aan onze zijde, mijn beste.